It was a fasinating interview, as far as I was concerned, with a towering historical figure. Here's the transcript in full. I will offer commentary throughout in bold text and a short wrap-up at the end.
21 April 2005, 1420
Secretary of Defense's office
Room 3E880
Pentagon
[Some background: This interview occurred Thursday afternoon. I had been waiting for about two weeks to get in, finally flying down Monday afternoon even though I didn't have any firm timeframe for the interview, just Larry DiRita's [chief of staff and head press person] continuing promise that "we'll get this done in time." Mark Warren [executive editor of Esquire] kept telling me it had to happen by the end of this week-or else. So I flew down Monday, camped in a hotel in DC, made clear to DiRita that I was just minutes away and ready to roll, and emphasized that it needed to happen this week.
Well, Tuesday comes and it looks good, but then I get the call from DiRita's people and I'm told not today but come in and interview DiRita himself, which I do, for close to an hour and it's a great interview. He tells me we're set with Rumsfeld for Wednesday early afternoon.
Next morning comes and I get a call: can't be today (Wednesday) because schedule intervenes.
Then I get an email from the public affairs people assuring me I'll have all the transcripts from previous interviews in my hands momentarily. I had been bugging these people for weeks on this. Why were they all of a sudden appearing? Word I got was that the Secretary wanted to review all the interviews himself today so as to be ready tomorrow. Thus the promise was, I'd get to interview him on Thursday. He just wanted more time to prepare.
Fine and dandy.
I show up Thursday ready to roll. The young officer who escorts me in says he loved the book and is a big fan. I met another senior aide in Rumsfeld's outer-office lobby who says he's disappointed he didn't know I was going to be there today, because he would have brought his copy for me to sign.
This is the dynamic I've run into consistently in these interviews: underlings know the material, seniors know of the ideas but haven't had the time to read anything, thus reinforcing my old notion that if you want to get ideas in front of people, it's the PowerPoint that prevails. How did Rumsfeld get my stuff? Through Art Cebrowski's briefs during his stint as director, Office of Force Transformation.
So I had no illusions about Rumsfeld being familiar with my writings or me per se, just the ideas.
I'm standing outside in the lobby when all of a sudden Rumsfeld appears and strides out the door, a young officer jumping up from his desk and trailing him instantly as they head down the hall. It's now 2:05 pm and my interview was supposed to run from 2:00 to 2:20, so that worried me some. DiRita comes over and says Rumsfeld needs to do a grip-and-grin with a visiting delegation (Czech) and he'll be right back.
I chat a bit with DiRita and his deputy. Five minutes pass. Then they duck into Rumsfeld's inner sanctum of offices. Then a secretary comes out and beckons me in. Rumsfeld is in office, apparently re-entering through another door.
As I say in the piece, it's a huge space.
The interview begins . . .]
Dirita: Mr. Secretary, Tom Barnett
Rumsfeld: Hey! How are you?
Barnett: Good to meet you, sir.
Rumsfeld: Nice to see you. [to DiRita] Do we want to sit here?
Dirita: Well, why don't we go to the big table.
Rumsfeld: Okay, well.
Rumsfeld: Rumsfeld [to DiRita, teasing]: You don't believe I sang a Czech song to the Czech [delegation], do ya?
Dirita: Did you actually sing?
Rumsfeld [mock serious]: No, I was dignified. Behaved myself. Acted diplomatic. [smiling to Barnett] Fire away. We're changing the calendar so I can stay here til about--
Dirita: We're good for about 20 minutes, Tom
Rumsfeld: Yeah, okay.
Barnett: Okay, let me just jump right in--
Rumsfeld: First of allÖ what do you write for? What do you do?
[Naturally, I was taken somewhat aback by this. Then I remembered: this is Rumsfeld's drill of "getting to the bottom" of things before proceeding. He knew the answers to these questions. He was just interested in how I'd present them. So I went along with the implied reverse interview to start the process.]
Barnett: My name is Tom Barnett.
Rumsfeld [with implied "duh!"]: I know that!
Barnett: And I write for Esquire now, among many things I do since I left DoD.
Rumsfeld: What did you do here?
Barnett: I worked for Art Cebrowski--
Rumsfeld [slowly, as if remembering]: --That's right.
Barnett: --in the Office of Force Transformation for two years after 9-11. Enjoyed it a lot.
Rumsfeld: Yeah, I bet you would. Interesting. That's great. And do you like what you're doing now?
Barnett: Well, I'm writing a sequel to a book that I wrote when I was in DoD that did well. It was a New York Times best-seller, so I'm pursuing that, giving speeches, doing all sorts of stuff.
Rumsfeld: What was the book?
Barnett: The Pentagon's New Map. Based on a lot of the stuff I'd done
for Art. A lot of thinking.
Rumsfeld: I'll be darned. Well good. And you wrote it while you were working here?
Barnett: Well, I wrote it on my off-time. Actually, after the War College made me quit. Art bought my salary for two years. The Naval War CollegeÖ
Rumsfeld: Is that why you left?
Barnett: No, they eventually got pushy on me with the idea of the second book.
Rumsfeld: They didn't want you writing a second book?
Barnett: Yeah, because the first book sold about 60,000 copies, or last I checked, and that's the problem. You start writing for Esquire and stuff like that--they put the Esquire magazines on the thing right next to Parameters and Naval Institute Proceedings and there'd be Scarlett Johansson lookin' pretty damn niceÖ just didn't go well.
Rumsfeld: [laughs] I love it!
Barnett: A little too transformative. So this thing's going to be the "Ten Men Issue" which they're reviving from 2001. They've done sort of this issue for the last few years. They're going to call it "Ten Men" again.
Rumsfeld: What's it mean?
Barnett: It just means they're looking at ten guys that they think are important and they want to profile.
Rumsfeld: Males?
Barnett: Males. It's a guy-oriented magazine. That's why Scarlett Johansson is on the cover.
DiRita:[Rumsfeld's aide]: Couldn't put Schwarzenegger on the coverÖ
Rumsfeld: In the old days it was Vargas and Petty, isn't that right?
[At this point, I had no idea where the hell this was going, and I wasn't quite sure how to get the interview back on track, but I figured he'd cut it out eventually, even as it was entertaining.]
Barnett: Right. Yeah, I think they did have Vargas.
Rumsfeld: SketchÖ the sketchesÖ. Vargas girls and Petty girls, I think.
Barnett: Ö On the hood of a car.
Rumsfeld [searching his memory]: Yeah, maybe.
Barnett: Yeah.
Rumsfeld [collecting himself]: Well, fire away!
Barnett: Okay--
Rumsfeld [suddenly leans forward]: --Who are the other nine?
Barnett: I have no idea. They don't tell me.
Rumsfeld [leans back in his chair slow]: I see. [laughs]
[At this point, I figure it's now or never. Rumsfeld's done his mild wire-brushing of me, gotten his answers, feels comfortable, so it's finally a go.]
Barnett: Looking to write something sort of like an eight-year history of transformation, treating '05 as sort of a tipping point. So, interested in getting your sense as to how this thing has kind of unfolded and what you think is left to be done, in your mind. And your sense of how well it's going now. First question: The fact that you were SecDef before Ö Did that inform the way you thought about transformation coming in? Did they give you an early definition? I know you didn't call it transformation when you were first coming in so much and you weren't identified particularly with that crowd, but you had ideas about transformation?
Rumsfeld: Oh sure. Well, it was so clear that the Cold War was over, that we were in a new era. And technologies had advanced by leaps and bounds, and that the institution was still kind of industrial-age instead of information-age. We worked on it from off of the President's Citadel speech. And as you--I don't know if you were here during that periodÖ
Barnett: Yeah, I was up at the war college.
Rumsfeld: Yeah, but we worked hard on it and began developing the directions and then announced it all about September 10th. We had a major speech on transformation before September 11th. Clearly September 11th provided the impetus, the urgency, and Ö
Barnett: A little more maneuverabilityÖ
Rumsfeld: Well, yeah. I mean, people said, ìYou can't fight a war on terror and transform this place at the same time,î but obviously you probably couldn't have transformed it absent Ö I don't know if I believe that, but it sure helped a lot of people understand the need to change. I wrote down some processes that we've been changing.
[pulls out a piece of paper from a folder laying on the table]
[I got worried at this point. I wasn't interested in The List of talking points. Had them all already from other interviews. But I could tell he was determined to read me through the list, so my goal immediately became one of getting him through that list as quickly as possible while mining the precious time for whatever I could still get in, in terms of questions. I was also determined not to go silent for any stretch of time. I know guys at this level expect never to be interrupted, but I was comfortable doing that, and I didn't want the interview to become just his mini-speech. Still, I knew that fighting the list wasn't a good tactic. I just wanted to get him through it ASAP and establish enough connection on the material so that when the time allotted came to a close, I'd be allowered to run over, which is what happened.]
People, as you've probably observed, think of transformation as ships, guns, tanks, planes
Barnett: --High-tech. YeahÖ
Rumsfeld: --Which I don't. And we haven't here particularly. Process reform, to me, is significant, because what it does is. When I came in, I looked at all these conveyer belts that seemed to be going a lot that looked like they were loaded six, eight years ago, and they were just chugging along, and you could reach in and take something off, or put something on, but you couldn't connect the different conveyer belts. Each process had a life of its own and drivers that were disconnected from the others, and it was really just stark for me to see it that way, having been in a company where you could make things happen.
Barnett: Right. You could switch stuffÖ
Rumsfeld: Right. So we formed this senior-level review group [SLRG, pronounced "slurg"] that meets down in this hall down here--
Barnett: --Slurg?
Rumsfeld: --The Slurg. And I tell you, it has had as much effect as anything else we have done. Everyone got to know each other, we know our strengths and weaknesses, we know what's important, and we learn from each other. There's no one smart enough to know what ought to be done in this department on big things like that, you have to be informed by others. And you have to have a process where people are confident, they can talk, they can take risks, they can speculate on things and raise questions, and it has been just an enormously important part of what's happened.
[referring to the list] Then you look at contingency planning and how we've changed that process for war plansÖ I mean, just a dramatic difference today. There have to be assumptions up front for a change. You can look at it and know if some of those assumptions are no longer validÖ pretty quick. And before you do all the TIPFIDs [Time Phased Force Deployment Data; this is the primary logistics implementation mechanism with any operational deployment], and all the work down the line.
[referring to the list] Budget and program cycle: we've gone to a two-year with a year for worried about implementation [couldn't follow that statement].
[referring to the list] The employment order process Ö and it really looked like it was 3X5 cards in a shoebox when it came to me the first thing. And we've got that--not perfect, and not fully automated--but it is a whale of a lot better. A lot more respectful of people's lives and their employers and their families that they get more notice of what's going to happen.
[referring to the list] We couldn't balance risk. We could balance risks of this tank against that tank. But you couldn't balance risks of Ö well not just risk but the desirability of putting power using this technique as opposed to that technique. You couldn't balance investment risks against a war plan risk versus the quality of life for the troops and what that would do if you didn't have the right housing and you didn't have the right pay and so forth. We didn't even begin to know how to balance risks against investments today for things we have versus investments that won't pay off for ten years. Worse we didn't seem to know it that we didn't have the ability to balance those.
Barnett: And you coming in you knew that making a change in these processes was going to take years?
Rumsfeld: Oh yeah. But if you don't change the process,
Barnett: Then changing the budget's kind of meaningless.
Rumsfeld: Exactly.
Barnett: But then they've been complaining about you from the start, that you never made the tough decisions on the budget until '06. Okay, in your mind it took that long to change those processes and set in motion. Otherwise you are just like Lucy in that one scene from "I Love Lucy," changing things coming out of the factory and you can do that to a certain extent [Rumsfeld chuckles], but once Lucy's pulled off the line, some one else has sat down and nothing gets changed--where you're really changing the gear box.
Rumsfeld: These are fundamentals. These are what we call the gear boxes.
Absolutely.
[back to the list] The theater of security operation guidance and how everybody interacts with the rest of the world, the reconnaissance orders and how we've totally shifted how we do all these platforms and what kind of information they're picking up and where they're doing it and why they're doing it and what the risks are and in many cases the risks reverse. The risks became an advantage as opposed to a risk after 9/11.
Barnett: And that's all stuff that goes up to war.
Rumsfeld: Exactly.
Barnett: That's all preparation.
Rumsfeld: Sure.
Barnett: Decision making right up to it.
Rumsfeld: [again going to the list] The time we've spent on getting the right people in the right jobs, the military leadership from two-stars up, so that we have people who take risks. People who are joint, people who are involved in joint war-fighting.
Barnett: Is that when the Slurg really took off? When your people started to appear? It really takes a couple of year for a new SecDef to get those people in those military positions.
Rumsfeld: I think it was--I wouldn't want to put that as the benchmark. It was the more time we spent with each other.
Barnett: Just physically spending time, just talking it out.
Rumsfeld: And learning about each other. And what we're thinking and why we're thinking it. And learning from each other. Now it happened that as that went on, new people came in, so--
Barnett: --But as that goes on, you establish a culture and when new people come in they understand the culture pretty quickly as it's demonstrated.
Rumsfeld: When you don't let a lot of people in the room, there's no chatter about "Gee this guy said something dumb and he proposed this."
Barnett: So the word doesn't get out and it's a real--
Rumsfeld: It's been a-[back to the list] the special operations Ö the way we've expanded that . . . putting them in charge of the global war on terrorism.
Barnett: And made them a supported as well as a supporting-
Rumsfeld: Right. [referring to the list] And the global posture going away from the end of the Cold War and pulling people to places where we can use them and places where they'll be more available.
[referring to the list] The rebalancing going on in the Guard and Reserve and within the Guard and Reserve today and between the active and reserve components is making an enormous difference in our capabilities.
[referring to the list] The new commands: the Northern Command, the Joint Forces Command Ö Giambastiani's down there just doing a terrific job with the place.
[referring to the list] And then the changes in the Army: increasing the size and Pete Schoomaker's concept about increasing the number of brigades and making them pull some of the capabilities down from the divisions down to the brigade level.
[referring to the list] Tackling NATO: if some one had said four years ago that you could get an institution of then 18, 19 up to 26--an increase of 6 or 7--bring the command structures down from 22 to 9 or 10 to 11Ö NATO response force in place able to function without excessive caveats and restrictions--
Barnett: And all short of a direct attack on them.
Rumsfeld: --And get them functioning in Afghanistan and Central Asia and taking responsibility and then stick and train and equip in Iraq. Some would have said there's no way in the world. It's hard enough to get one country to do something, let alone to get all of them to do it and then changing the Atlantic Command and ending it and turning it into a Transformation Command. Those were enormous decisions that we pushed along.
[referring to the list] The National security personnel system: I'm just getting going but it could be a big thing.
Barnett: Do you think that's going to have a demonstration effect for the rest of the U.S. government?
Rumsfeld: I don't know.
DiRita: The people who are involved with it might-
Rumsfeld: They say so. The say so.
DiRita:The people on the Hill are aware of the possibility of that, which is why they've spent so much time making sure we get it right.
Barnett: Because that's sort of been the attempt with the Department of Homeland Security and that's been hard.
Rumsfeld: Yeah, yeah. People are talking that way but I've got enough trouble just trying to get this thing planted here and going.
[finally puts away the list, having completed it] But all of those things, almost nothing I've mentioned is something that was in the speech at the Citadel or something that was a centerpiece of transformation people talking about high tech.
[Now I work hard to establish the connection, because nothing he's given me up to now is particularly useful for the piece. I need some killer quotes, and I knew I had only a few minutes to get them here. If DiRita perceived the interview was lagging once Rumsfeld got done with his list, the hook would come out immediately. So, let's say, I was incentivized here.]
Barnett: Well, it was all "skip a generation" was all you ever heard.
Rumsfeld: And yet all of these things, in my view, will have a more fundamental change and your comment about "Gee, you didn't make any tough budget decisions" and so forth, the--it is perfectly possible to reach into the middle of the gear box and grab something and cancel it, we did it on Crusader. Right thing to do and an enormous amount of energy and wasted time and effort defending it.
[shifting gears to positive developments] Stuff's happening down here [knocks on table] in ways that it's coming up from the institution.
Barnett: You don't have to cancel that.
Rumsfeld: [agreeing] It's going to come up right. And it's going to come up over time. And it's going to come up in a manner where there's been interaction with the press and with the Congress and the contractors so it doesn't take that jarring of changing something at the last minute.
Barnett: But you must have known starting back in 2001 that this was a two-term effort.
Rumsfeld: Oh it takes time. Any CEO in a corporation you ask him what the rough amount of time to do it. It's eight or ten years. You just don't do things. And that's one of the biggest things we may accomplish here before I'm done and we haven't done it yet, that may very well be lengthening the tour lengths for military people. They've been skipping along the tops of waves and not been around long enough to clean up their own mistakes and touching on those things but never really getting into it. And we need people who have made mistakes and have done stuff and have set priorities and tried to implement them and who understand that and understand leadership.
Barnett: Who've left real imprints instead of just doing tours.
Rumsfeld: Exactly. And we're going to be lengthening these tours. We're doing it. I'd like to lengthen the number of years people serve if they want to serve longer.
Barnett: Right.
Rumsfeld: It doesn't fit the model of the defense reformers particularly, but the outcome may be surer. I hope.
[Here comes my big push.]
Barnett: Yeah and talking to everybody in this interview series, the whole "light and lethal" kind of thing or "agile and lethal" Ö they tended to kind of look at it in terms of process and they almost never discussed weapons systems or platforms.
Rumsfeld: Is that right?
Barnett: And that's kind of interesting because there is a lot-
Rumsfeld: They've been doing more what I do.
Barnett: There is a line that says well Rumsfeld doesn't know transformation, all he can come up with is [sing-songing] "light and lethal," "light and lethal," "light and lethal," "light and lethal."
Rumsfeld: I haven't even said it!
Barnett: Well whatever it is .. "agile and lethal." There's about eight different things.
Rumsfeld: In this discussion here I've talked about totally different things.
Barnett: [exclaiming in exasperation] Right, but where is the "light and lethal" weapons system and the descriptions I've been getting--have been--right up to it, right up to when you turned these guys on?
Rumsfeld: Yeah.
Barnett: When I've had discussions with people about "Where's the micromanaging on thinking?" Ö about how to use it, that's where I hear about top cover and just absolute freedom to think about using things differently. So there's a real disconnect between the perception about what you've been changing, what you've been micromanaging, and where the freedom's been. So there's just an interesting sort of misperception in my mind, which I've spent years trying to explain in various briefs to people and it's interesting to sort of have it validated in this discussion now later. It was always my supposition. It was always very frustrating Ö because I developed a brief for Art that sort of went around--and he said, "Give me a briefing on transformation that doesn't mention the whack list once, that doesn't mention Crusader, that has nothing to do with that." So it [the brief] became a description of the world and how you dealt with it and why you had to be more agile and lethal because it was more about thinking and process than anything else.
Rumsfeld: Yeah, I mean speed kills.
Barnett: In the best way.
[Now the interview begins for real, in my mind. Officially, we are out of time. But here's where I get virtually everything I need for the piece. Here's where it stops being merely an interview and starts being a real converstation, in my opinion.]
Rumsfeld: I play squash with him [gesturing to DiRita]. And when I pass him in a shot and it's a well-played hard shot, I saw speed kills. And it does. If you can do something very fast you can get your job done and save a lot of lives.
Barnett: And that's been your mantra: this whole thing is just making everything move faster and with more agility. It's been mostly process.
Rumsfeld: The process determines everything else. So it isn't mostly process, it's substance that you tackled, not this thing here and that thing there substantively and kill that program and beef up that one. It's been process that's going to produce--and is producing--a set of products that are vastly different than otherwise would be produced.
Barnett: Right. What I always say about the Pentagon is that the Pentagon doesn't really control the military so much--in the popular understanding of controlling the military. That's what the combatant commanders do.
Rumsfeld: Mmm hmm.
Barnett: What the Pentagon does is think about the future of war and builds a force for it and that could either be a great positive, all-sorts-of-capabilities-thing or it could be a narrowing, TIPFID-driven, pain-in-the-ass sort of thing that just drives you nuts.
Rumsfeld: When they showed me that first TIPFID, and what the hell they were doing, and the number of people that were doing it, and the way they were doing it, I just could not believe it. It was just medieval.
Barnett: And it took almost just a month to figure out the writings.
Rumsfeld: Right. And I looked at the contingencies plans and was stunned at how stale they were and how unfocused on agreed-upon assumptions or where assumptions existed or where assumptions were no longer valid.
Barnett: So you're going to be frustrated when you go to Iraq and you get that question which people describe as the hillbilly armor question. You know that one is an example of--that's a system that's been building a force for a quite a long time. That force bumps into a different reality and all of a sudden you're supposed to have the problem solved that afternoon.
Rumsfeld: Yeah, we had a--one of our folks made a comment the other day and I called him on it and said, "You said you have 20 percent of something you need" and he said yeah. And I said, "You have 100 percent of what you have and you've decided you need something else." And he said that's right. And I said, "Well, when did you decide that?" And he said last week. And I said, "Well, what you need to do is not say that you have 20 percent of what you have. What you need to do is adapt your tactics, techniques and procedures to fit what you have because that's what you asked for. And you now have it."
Barnett: That's what you wanted.
Rumsfeld: That's what you wanted. And now you've got it. And now you've got to go do what you do with what you have and make sure that you're protecting lives and achieving goals by designing tactics, techniques and procedures to fit it. There's nothing wrong with saying you want more of something or something different. But you're against a thinking enemy, the enemy's going to change. If you are successful and you get a body armor that will stop a certain size slug.
Barnett: He's going to come at a different angle.
Rumsfeld: He's going to come at a different angle or he's going to get armor-piercing slugs. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. If you get a jammer to take these frequencies out, they're going to go to these frequencies or they're going to roam or they're going to do something different. That is the nature of it. And you will never have the ability to defend it against every location and every conceivable technique at every moment of the day or night--
Barnett: --With just your stuff.
Rumsfeld: --With stuff. We would sink a country with that stuff! So that's what the commander's gotta do. He's gotta use his head. And adapt those techniques and procedures. Ask for what he wants and get it as soon as you can, but that kind of thinking, it seems to me, is what they have to have in their heads, and they do now--and that's good.
[That whole sequence generated some good stuff for the article.]
Barnett: And that's a sense of accomplishment on your part? In terms of the change that you've tried Ö the culture of change.
Rumsfeld: Well, we've got people out there who are so good, and they've got the guts to call audibles, and they do. And I think it's admirable. I mean, the idea that the President of the United States, the Secretary of Defense, or the Combatant Commander in Tampa could tell the people in Iraq or Afghanistan what they're supposed to do when they get up in the morning just isn't realistic. These soldiers and sailors and marines and airmen are so good, and their leadership is so good, that they are doing an enormously complex task the way it should be done. It's different in every part of that country. If [U.S. ground forces commander] George Casey designed a template and dropped it down and said, ìHere's what each division should doÖ each brigade,î it wouldn't work! Because the situation is different in north, in the south, in Baghdad Ö We've got rural problems out west. So what he has to do is get very good people, give them the right kind of leadership, encourage them to be bold and to take risks, and to communicate back what they need, what they're doing, get ideas from others--and go out and do their best, and that's what they do. And the folks they're working with are terrific. It is really impressive to see what they're doing. Have you been out there?
[More stuff for the article right there.]